"Nuclear Experts" Slip on Radioactive Banana!




Ok, first I read this disturbing account which is, I believe, actually a number of people that have a vested interest in keeping the DU issue under wraps. Robert Holloway, Otto G Raabe, etc.

Traprock Peace Center Misleads Public on Depleted Uranium by Robert Holloway

I found this article ("Traprock Peace Center misleads public") posted on the website of this company called Nevada Technical Associates, Inc. Their website is at; http://www.ntanet.net/

They have a whole web site and letter writing campaign devoted to countering the negative "fallout" that the nuclear industry is experiencing from the publicity Depleted Uranium is receiving recently. Mostly aimed at refuting claims made by Dr. Helen Caldicott about the nuclear industry and depleted uranium specifically.

The following is a direct quote from their website (which can be read here; http://www.ntanet.net/publicinfo.html):

"Many of us who work in the nuclear industry and the profession of radiation safety believe that the public is needlessly fearful of nuclear power and radioactive materials. One of the most outspoken critics of the use of radioactive materials is Dr. Helen Caldicott. This web page was begun as site to allow several experts to respond to Dr. Caldicott's recent remarks that were published in the Los Angeles Times. The first group of links below is related to Caldicott's LA Times article." (my emphasis added). For more info see; http://www.ntanet.net/publicinfo.html

Crow: Personally I think the words "needlessly fearful of nuclear power and radioactive materials" is a bit over the top. It really shows where our loyalties lie, right guys?

On April 16th I wrote an email to the Traprock Peace Center to ask them what they thought of the whole banana argument. His reply is posted below;

Hi David - I'm convinced that Holloway is part of a DoD smear campaign against Doug. His credentials are impeccable and we have deflected efforts by a Col. Robert Cherry and others to keep Doug from speaking (in Indy area and DC). Doug has simply shown his military orders - he was promoted twice after Gulf War I for his DU work.

They focus on an interpretation of the famous Groves memo. Doug says they were talking about uranium as it could be weaponized. It's not a 'mistake' - it's a difference in interpretation. He has focused on this - let's face it, a fine point of argument over the meaning of a 1943 memo - to divert attention from the dangers of DU. Throwing dirt on Doug and Helen Caldicott reflects a classic technique of US administrations, witness the treatment of Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife by the leaking of her being a CIA agent by While House sources, and the recent trashings of former Cabinet Secretary O'Neil and of Mr. Clarke during his 9/11 testimony.

I've avoided continuing dialogues with Holloway as he has made it is career it seems to divert us from the real work. I'm in the on going process of developing original content for the website on DU (and other antiwar and justice issues) and organizing with allies such as the National Grassroots Peace Network http://www.endthewar.org and the Campus Antiwar Network - http://www.campusantiwar.net

Holloway - a wealthy businessman from Nevada in the private nuclear sector with long involvement with nuclear bomb testing interests - would love to chew up everyone's time and throw more dirt around, hoping some of it will stick.

I do appreciate your informing me of your site.

I also completely disagree with Mr. Holloway and so I sent him the following email suggesting that he watch the movie "Metal of Dishonor"

4/10/2004

Look, why don't you check out the movie "Metal of Dishonor"

Information on that movie can be found here;

http://www.peoplesvideo.org/metal.htm

or read this hand out which covers it really well

http://www.iacenter.org/images/du-703.pdf

Or check this out, I don't have a college education at all and I still know about Depleted Uranium and how the name "depleted" itself is misleading.

The fact is that this will guarantee that jihad is on its way. Dumping our nuclear waste upon an innocent people that we are supposed to be liberating is unforgivable in the eyes of many.

We who know what is coming down the pipe for our children and our children's children who will pay for the folly of our day have a responsibility. We must get the truth out.

The people at the Traprock peace center are dedicated to the truth so I'm sure that they don't mind you bringing up whatever points you may. However I must say we are tired of hearing the same old story about how safe nuclear technology is. We're not buying it brother.

We're not buying that our government has our best interests in mind either.

I just thought I'd share my opinion with you since you have yours "out there"

Dumping our nuclear waste on our enemies is just as bad because of the fact of Depleted Uranium's persistence. This is a material that will keep on punishing the future generations of a nation. This will guarantee jihad. When I see children playing on a burned out Iraqi tank and have a journalist with a Geiger counter say that the radiation level of the tank is 1900 times the normal background radiation I know that we have a real problem. When the Iraqi people gain the awareness of what has been done to them, it is not likely they will quickly forgive and forget. Al-Queda will have a source of recruitment for many years to come thanks to the Bush administration and America's psychotic recycling plan for depleted uranium. Please stop lying to people. I don't want to live on a planet at war. And that is just where we are headed if we don't admit to ourselves and the world that we have made a horrible mistake. We need to clean up our mess. By the way. The truth is persistent. You know that you are lying. you know that eventually this will all be common knowledge. There is no escaping the fact that there are children who were only exposed to the dust in the duffel bags of their fathers coming home from the first gulf war who are now pissing depleted uranium. They weren't even in the war but it was brought home for them by their fathers because our military machine cares nothing for the needs of the few or the one. Unless it is the needs or greed of the plutocrats profiting from our ignorance. As if the world were a grand chessboard for their pleasure. We can only hope that these people will someday inhale some of these "harmless" particles you speak of and are removed from the gene pool as you and I know will happen if they do. Radiation in the lungs usually leads to cancer no matter where in the universe you are. It is pure fantasy that depleted uranium is less radioactive than uranium ore. Uranium ore doesn't have the concentration that DU has. It has a half life of 4.5 billion years and has heavy metal toxicity as well. (Note: The views and opinions you read at the deprogrammer are entirely the responsibility of the person who has expressed them. They are in no way meant to be interpreted as opinions that members of Quad Cities People for Peace embrace as a group.) (Author's note: In fact, I'm quite sure that many members of Quad Cities People for Peace would be shocked to know that I had wished anyone ill at all even for a moment. I in fact do not wish people to inhale dangerous particles whether they are rich or poor, guilty or not guilty. As Gandhi said; "You must be the change you wish to see.") So please stop filling our minds up with this lie. Peace now, David VanThournout April 10, 2004 UNLIKE YOU, I AM A SCIENTIST AND AM INTERESTED ONLY IN TRUTH. I HAVE NOT LIED WHEN I ACCURATELY REPORT THE SCIENTIFIC TRUTH. PLEASE READ "Depleted Uranium In The Gulf": http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii YOUR RADICAL AND EXTREMELY WRONG VIEWS ARE NOT HELPFUL TO SOCIETY OR THE WORLD! Sincerely, Otto G. Raabe And on 4/10/2004 Mr. Holloway replied; I don't have to see a movie, I am an expert in this subject, having worked with environmental radioactivity for 30 years. I know more about it than any of the activists. The feedback from my essay is about evenly divided between those like you, who are upset by it and those who react more positively. Here is one of the responses: Thanks for expressing faith in human rationality by posting that essay. With your permission i'll send it around. I work with the news media on space stuff, and I swear I spend more time correcting wrong ideas than in transmitting right ones. Like i quote in my last book, 'It ain't what you don't know that'll make you look like a fool, it's what you DO know what ain't so." (Will Rogers). Jim Oberg To which I replied; 4/10/2004 I doubt that you know more than "any of the activists". That is a rather general statement if you ask me. I believe that there are activists who are highly educated on the subject. Einstein himself had serious self doubts about what he had caused by his theory of relativity. And that did nothing more than point in a direction. I am not a fool either by any means. Just because you have worked with environmental radioactivity for 30 years doesn't mean that you are right about everything. Scientists have often pursued incorrect theories for entire lifetimes and longer. I am not anti technology either. I am pro life on earth. I believe many interesting things about nuclear technology. Like Isaac Asimov, I believe that without machines we will not reach the stars. I believe that it is possible that all living planets might inevitably pass through a nuclear age as a necessary step in it's evolution. I believe that someday all this horrible technology might actually save the earth from being destroyed by yet another asteroid. So try not to make too many assumptions about where I'm coming from or what I believe. I just happen to understand enough to know that Depleted Uranium is still highly dangerous and also exhibits heavy metal toxicity. And incidentally, just your opening statement shows your closed mindedness; "I don't have to see a movie" If you were truly a scientist you would have a healthy skepticism without the prejudgment that this movie is not going to tell the truth. You would openly and honestly be able to question everything that you believe because if it is a fact, then it doesn't need your belief in order for it to exist. Question everything. If it is true, it can take it! It is my belief that you guys are the spin doctors trying to downplay the gravity (no pun intended) of the use of depleted uranium in modern warfare. So you're not really scientists but government yes men that will skew the results of "tests" and "studies to favor "findings" for purely political reasons. That's my feeling here. In the end, the truth is persistent. Agent Orange was treated in much the same way that DU is today. But we all know about that now. In time we will all know about DU and the horrors of waging low level nuclear war upon our fellow citizens of earth. It is the innocent unborn generations that we are punishing that will be our undoing. This is totally against the Geneva convention. let us get a few facts straight. DU has a half life of 4.5 billion years. DU is not fissionable. But it is still radioactive. Depleted uranium remains radioactive for literally billions of years, and over these long periods of time it will continue to produce all of its radioactive decay products; thus depleted uranium actually becomes more radioactive as the centuries and millennia go by because these decay products accumulate. DU can be transformed in a breeder reactor into plutonium. And we all know how radioactive that is. So hey! you haven't fooled me at all guys! I'm one of those unique individuals who can think for themselves. Just because I've admitted to not having a college education doesn't mean that I'm un-educated at all. I have a thirst for knowledge and have never stopped learning. peace now David "Crow" VanThournout On April 11th 2004 Mr. Holloway replied with this statement; Crow: I doubt that you know more than "any of the activists". That is a rather general statement if you ask me. I believe that there are activists who are highly educated on the subject. Mr. Holloway: Most that I have read are fools, even in the few cases where they have an academic education in the subject. But most of the better known activists do not have a formal education in the area, they pick up just enough information to fool people such as yourself. To which I responded on April 11th; Crow: In the best of all possible worlds maybe nuclear technology would be ok. We mistrust the Enron's of the corporate world or rather we trust them to be totally irresponsible with such responsibilities. I think that perhaps you really are stretching here. You still insist on belittling what I know and assume that I'm just one of these dupes who believe anything without thinking at all. If nothing else you got it wrong about one thing. I'm the activist picking up enough to fool the people.... not that that is really true. I'm giving people the information I think they need to make really educated decisions concerning the future of our planet. mostly the nuke issue for me is living due south of a nuke plant that is ill maintained by Exelon corp. and being in need of decommissioning they instead extend it's operating license. Even though the core shroud is cracked all to hell. I know from my personal conversations with various people who work inside this facility that it is in poor repair. All at the expense of the taxpayers. I believe that in the best of all possible worlds that nuclear technology can be just as safe as you say. Barring participation by corporations like Enron... unfortunately we don't live in paradise where everything is perfect so you cannot realistically bar corporations like Enron from managing nuke plants.... so I view them with mistrust.... knowing the history of such things. The real problem is that corporations don't care. They are unable to. We then must care for them. And when they cannot be made to bend to the will of the people for the good of all???? What should we do then? So... it sounds like in order to have an opinion that you might respect I would have to have a formal education in the subject. Us lowly citizens are unable to have a valid opinion even though these things deeply effect our world and everyone should have a say in it. You should have some faith in our ability to decide for ourselves what sort of a world we would like to live in. Peace Crow Mr Holloway then sent the following hilarious email ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:34 PM Subject: Re: depleted uranium Crow: let us get a few facts straight. DU has a half life of 4.5 billion years. It is not possible to make DU fissionable. But it is still radioactive. <<<< Mr. Holloway: Bananas are radioactive with K-40. Will you stop eating bananas? Why are you so scared of DU but not bananas? Crow: gee I didn't know that! where does the K-40 come from? Mr. Holloway: It is naturally present in most foods. Anything that has potassium will also have K-40 which is radioactive. Mr. Mike Stabin, PhD, CHP "Potassium-40 is a lethal toxin, which is blithely distributed to the public by grocery store chains all over America every day of the year. This deadly isotope remains radioactive for nearly 13 billion years, and emits extremely high energy gamma rays (1.5 million electron volts) and beta particles (1.3 million electron volts). This material is present in high concentrations in many of the foods that these stores foist on the public, with full knowledge of the US government. Radiations of this type and energy are well known for causing leukemia, breast cancer, and fatal and non-fatal birth defects." Everything said here is true - K-40 is a naturally occuring radioisotope of potassium - many foods like bananas, fruit flavored sherbets, and potassium salts contain lots of K-40. "People" contain lots of K-40. It has a very long half-life, about 1.3 billion years, and does emit high energy radiations. Radiation has been linked to cancer. Are the grocery stores thus in collusion to irradiate and cause cancer in the American public? No. But I could make it sound that way if I wanted to. Unfortunately, many of the arguments (pro-nuke, anti-nuke, pro-life, pro-choice) carried in the media these days are dominated by people who have made a living out of dealing in hyperbole instead of the truth. While this continues, the American public is not being well served by this diet of diatribe. Mike Stabin, PhD, CHP Oak Ridge, TN (for those of you listening at home the whole ludicrous banana argument can be read here; http://www.ntanet.net/stabin.html) Crow: Also, we're not turning bananas into armour piercing weapons and polluting the Iraqi environment with banana micro fallout. Mr. Holloway quickly replied; Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: depleted uranium Crow:It is my belief that you guys are the spin doctors trying to downplay the gravity (no pun intended) of the use of depleted uranium in modern warfare. So you're not really scientists but government yes men that will skew the results of "tests" and "studies to favor "findings" for purely political reasons. <<<<<<<< Mr. Holloway: I am self employed in radiation safety. My income does not derive from any work on depleted uranium. As for not being a scientist, I have a Ph.D. in chemistry with 30 years experience in measuring radioactivity in the environment. Incidentally, one of my publications was on the subject of measuring uranium and thorium isotopes across the K-T boundary from the impact of that meteorite 65 million years ago. So I have hands on experience with measuring uranium and writing about it in a professional journal. I enjoyed that work a great deal and went to a location where I obtained the sample from the KT boundary with my own hands. Crow: Hey, that is totally cool. I understand the fascination. Believe me, I love science. especially interested in that bit of detective work on the K-T mass extinction. I followed that pretty closely. Had plenty of arguments with people about how we could possibly know just where it landed and when. Because of the iridium layer of course. As soon as I heard of that line of questioning I leapt like any good scientist would at drilling core samples around the world looking for the actual crater. I knew just how they would find it. Because of the rotation of the earth it would lay itself down in a known pattern getting thinner as you traveled away from line of latitude upon which the object struck. Of course this all seems elementary to me. Believe it or not, I find myself in similar arguments with lots of the people around me that you seem to be having with me. I'm not one of them. I will listen to reason. But I will not accept that you know more than I and that I can't possibly understand. That is simply not true. I do appreciate Carl Sagan for his ability to make us "fools" understand science. That of course was not what he thought of us at all. Rather we are like children that have curiosity that needs satisfying. That way you can avoid looking down upon us and not seem so condescending. I do expect to find people in my researching DU that will be govt. yes men even if you're not one of them. It is inevitable. You just may have more faith in the system than I do. If we are correct in our belief that DU is a horrible crime upon humanity, there will certainly be people with a vested interest in this remaining a secret. I have an open mind. I perceive the truth in many cases simply because of my willingness to hear all sides of a story. Including yours. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle here my friend. Let us truly communicate. You don't have to pay 4 to 5 billion dollars to clean up a 500 acre test range where the dept of defense developed armour piercing bananas now do you? I'd say there is a really big difference between bananas with k-40 and DU weaponry. One nurtures life the other destroys life. I'd say you have some real problems if you can't see that fundamental difference. (hint; you should fear DU but not bananas) Why did cancer rates in Iraq skyrocket after the gulf war? Why are all the young people of certain villages in Iraq afraid to marry? Why are all the birth defects that gulf war vets are now seeing in their children virtually the same kinds of birth defects that we are seeing in Iraq itself? What common thread is there among all those stories that could possibly be capable of causing these defects? Cancer has increased dramatically in southern Iraq. In 1988, 34 people died of cancer; in 1998, 450 died of cancer; in 2001 there were 603 cancer deaths. see; http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml that is in incredible increase in cancer deaths. Something is going on. And the fact that we have the same things happening to our gulf war vets indicates an answer is close at hand. There are places in Baghdad that are 1000 to 1900 times the normal background radiation level. These are neighborhoods that will be causing birth defects for many years to come. There are places within the United States where we have allowed corporations to pollute our own backyards in developing these horrible weapons. These are facts. Banana plantations couldn't become E.P.A. Superfund sites. But Depleted Uranium might just have guaranteed jihad! Only time will tell now. I say we better own up and clean up our mess. Here at home and in Iraq and Bosnia and Afghanistan and anywhere else we've used DU in the world. This is the only way we will ever be able to save face with the world. Americo must stop waging aggressive war through any means upon the rest of the world. Instead we can become the true friends of democracy the we could be if we only tried. The first step is in awareness. I will be teaching people about the horrors of war and of DU specifically till I see the changes I wish to see occur. It is widely accepted that there is really no safe level for radiation. So even legally allowable levels are recognized to be potentially dangerous. go ahead and dispute that one if you think you can. I just read it the other day. We know very well how things react in the atmosphere when they burn up. From our experience with the K-T event. We know how far things spread when they get lofted high into the atmosphere. Peace Now! Crow Mr. Holloway: The safety regulations are based on the assumption that there is no safe level and that certainly is a reasonable assumption for regulatory purposes, however no one really knows whether that is true or not. One reason that is hard to prove, one way or another is that we do know that the risk of low level radiation is very small. The only significant long term risk of radiation is cancer induction. That risk can be calculated by extrapolating the known risk from high levels, down to zero dose. When that is done, the typical result is that an almost lethal dose of radiation, i.e. 100 to 200 REM, increases the risk of cancer over a lifetime by a few percent. For example, 20 percent of the population dies from cancer without additional radiation. If you had a very substantial, almost deadly (i.e. an acute dose that may kill within 30 days) dose of radiation, that lifetime cancer risk is increased from say 20 percent to 21 or 22 percent depending on the dose. If the dose is reduced to near zero levels, the risk is reduced to such a low level that it impossible to detect the slight increase above the natural occurance of cancer. As an example, if 200,000 people out of a million die of cancer, if they are given a dose similar to that of natural background radiation, then their risk of cancer increases so that an additional dozen or so may die of cancer, making the increase impossible to detect. So although you are correct in saying that (possibly) even small amounts of radiation carry some risk, the risk is small compared to other risks that we normally accept. For instance, the risk of dying in an airline accident is not zero, but it is small enough that millions of people accept that risk everyday and do so most of the time with success. I live near a city that has a very large volume of air traffic and I am amazed at how safe it is. At any time of the night or day, I can see 4 to 6 planes making their landing approach, day after day, year after year, and no accidents. This is the sort of risk that is talked about when you say that there is possibly no safe level of radiation. The people you are listening to about depleted uranium just are not experts on the subject. For an alternative view, from real experts, see the following links: http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q611.html http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/ I realize that the critics of depleted uranium do not accept the viewpoints of the mainstream scientists on the subject, but my judgment is that the mainstream experts are far better qualified than are the critics. In addition to this, I have my own judgment to bear on the subject and I agree with the mainstream experts. It is also my opinion that most of the critics are made up of those who for political reasons want to see the United States fail in any military action. The foundation of their criticism is a political agenda. Feel free to respond if you like. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:06 AM Subject: Re: depleted uranium Crow: So... it sounds like in order to have an opinion that you might respect I would have to have a formal education in the subject. Us lowly citizens are unable to have a valid opinion even though these things deeply effect our world and everyone should have a say in it.<<<<<< Robert Holloway: Yes, a formal education in a subject adds a great deal of weight to a person's opinion. This is a specialized world we live in. I recently got a recommendation from my doctor that I go have several tests. I don't really want to go, but I will do it because I believe that with his years of specialized education and experience, his judgment on this issue is better than mine. A layman may have an opinion on DU but in my judgment it is very likely that a "lowly citizen" as you say may have an incorrect opinion. Experts can be wrong, but when almost all of them are in agreement on an issue, chances are they are correct. That is the case with depleted uranium. I have noticed that many who are afraid of DU are also willing to disregard conventional science even in medical areas. Many of them are into "alternative medicine" which in my book is another name for fraudulent medicine. Crow: again, you have me all wrong. My mother depended entirely upon medical science since she was born with Cystic Fibrosis. My grand parents (her mother and father were both nurses. I go to my doctor and have little faith in alternative medicine also. I have faith in the ability of an open mind to know the truth. I don't discount anything out of hand. I do have misgivings about homeopathy but only time will tell. I however must differ with you on these points. Overall I'd say there is consensus on DU. It is in fact dangerous. Something even 40% as radioactive as uranium ore is bad. And again, it is widely agreed that there truly is no safe level for radiation. The less you get the better off you are. I follow closely the writings of the Union of Concerned Scientists. I suppose you find yourself at odds with them too? I have contacted them and am awaiting their reply. I also have several resident genius's to consult on the matter. expect to hear back from them any day now. Peace now David Crow VanThournout Mr. Holloway then replied; ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:10 PM Subject: Re: depleted uranium Crow: I'm one of those unique individuals who can think for themselves. Just because I've admitted to not having a college education doesn't mean that I'm un-educated at all. I have a thirst for knowledge and have never stopped learning. <<<<<<<< Mr. Holloway: You can learn but have you learned how to think clearly? There are many college educated people who can think no better than you. Have you read Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted world"? If not, give it a try. Crow: I've read a whole lot brother. Carl Sagan is one of my favorite authors I haven't read that one though. I think that you have me all wrong I'm encouraged that you have continued this dialogue however and will talk with you as long as you think it is worth pursuing. I do believe that I can think clearly. I am always willing to re-examine my own beliefs. The truth is all important to me. objectivity is at a premium on this planet it seems. You continue to make assumptions about me. "There are many college educated people who can think no better than you." I am light years ahead of the average college graduate. I believe I can see more than one side of things frequently. In fact, there is usually three or more sides to a story. If you find yourself unable to put yourself in the other persons perspective then I would say your are unable to be objective. I can see your side of things. Can you see mine? Are you willing to try? You might find more common ground between us than battle ground. (that is generally true of any two humans) Carl Sagan is in fact one of my favorite authors. I excelled in science in grade school since I have a love of discovery. Next Mr. Holloway said; ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Re: depleted uranium Crow: also, we're not turning bananas into armour piercing weapons and polluting the Iraqi environment with banana micro fallout.<<<<<<<< Robert Holloway: Suppose we were showering Iraq with bananas. Would you be concerned about it from the viewpoint of excess radiation? To be consistent, you would have to be concerned about the radiation, but it is not an idea that would meet with much acceptance is it? Your problem is that you do not understand one simple thing: The Poison is in the dose. Crow: I do understand that it is in the dose. You sure make a lot of assumptions for a scientist. I'm saying that bananas are harmless while micro fallout from pyrophoric depleted uranium is not. Mr. Holloway: And what evidence are you using to come to that conclusion? April 14th 2004 Greetings Mr. Holloway. You asked what evidence I had used to come to the conclusion that bananas where less dangerous than micro fallout from depleted uranium. First I'd like to point out that we've all lived with bananas for millions of years. With no reason to really vilify bananas unduly. I truly have enough faith in science to know by now that there are more advantages to eating bananas than disadvantages. Aside from the skit on Monty Python's Flying Circus (and the occasional cartoon), I've never seen or heard of anyone menacing anyone with a banana (or any other kind of fruit for that matter). However, it is widely understood by many the hazards associated with the purification of uranium into fissionable and non fissionable forms and the dangers of releasing these purified, unstable, and extremely reactive elements into the environment. The argument that we should be outraged at the radioactive isotopes that are present in everything around us is ridiculous. On the website of the Health Physics Society ( http://hps.org/publicinformation/radfactsheets/radfact1.html ) I found the following information in their glossary: ALARA The guiding principle behind radiation protection is that radiation exposures should be kept "As Low As Reasonably Achievable (ALARA)," economic and social factors being taken into account. This common-sense approach means that radiation doses for both workers and the public are typically kept lower than their regulatory limits. This would immediately suggest to me Mr. Holloway that while we might not be able to achieve a significant reduction of environmental radiation we certainly do have control over how much nuclear waste we distribute throughout the countries we have recently been "liberating". I find the whole banana reference ludicrous in the extreme. Read the whole diatribe against Dr. Caldicott Now I'd like to present this recent report in the associated press about the findings of an independent expert (formerly employed by the Dept. of Defense) who had tested nine G.I.'s for Depleted uranium. Apparently the G.I.'s had specifically requested to be tested for Uranium but the army refused to test them for DU saying that there had been no risk of exposure. Four of the nine tested high with all showing traces. http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/041204F.shtml and http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/lateststories/index.ssf?/base/national-21/1081218242108150.xml Next I'd like to point out that the Parliament of a whole nation is not sending it's troops to certain places in Iraq unless the U.S. can guarantee that there has been no DU used in the areas that they will be stationed. http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/archive/200402/05/20040205p2a00m0fp012002c.html and; http://www.risq.org/article232.html Then there is the geiger counter readings of the areas of Iraq that are 1000 to 1900 time the normal background radiation. The picture of children playing on that tank that has measured so high in radiation is rather upsetting as well. "In May, the Christian Science Monitor reported Geiger-counter readings at several sites, including near the Republican Palace where U.S. troops stood guard. The radiation readings were nearly 1,900 times normal radiation levels." see; http://www.join-snafu.org/enlisted/DUflounders.htm It appears that the troops are well enough informed in this war but still the people of Iraq that live in the contaminated areas are not being informed of the hazards of DU at all. The following is a quote from a recent article; "Some experts believe the depleted uranium used in warfare is practically harmless, whereas others blame it for cancers and other illnesses." You can read that whole article here; http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-soldiers10apr10,1,3364517.story?coll=la-headlines-nation (one flaw I found in this article is it has the use of DU at 120 tons for George W's war on Iraq and really they used 1200 tons.) Right now I'm falling on the side of the experts who are saying that DU is dangerous. I think I'm in pretty good company.There is plenty of evidence that this is true in my opinion. The most likely common thread between everything here is Depleted Uranium. If not depleted uranium what? This is how we find out about war crimes. We often don't have the kind of proof you're looking for because of the ability that fascist regimes have to cover their tracks through subversion of the media and even of science itself. But this evidence is certainly accumulating. The truth is persistent. Remember that Mr. Holloway. I personally believe we will all need to be scientists to save this world. I read voraciously. Mr. Holloway: I realize that the critics of depleted uranium do not accept the viewpoints of the mainstream scientists on the subject, but my judgment is that the mainstream experts are far better qualified than are the critics. In addition to this, I have my own judgment to bear on the subject and I agree with the mainstream experts. It is also my opinion that most of the critics are made up of those who for political reasons want to see the United States fail in any military action. The foundation of their criticism is a political agenda. Crow: I do not want the US to fail militarily. I want us to embrace compassion and diplomacy as our foreign policy and never use the military again! I want to see an end to hate and militarism in our society and our world! Nobody who can truly claim to be a progressive social change activist will say that they want the US to "fail militarily". What true progressives are saying is that militarism in general will prove itself to be a failing policy that will ultimately result in our undoing. This is what we are saying, give peace a chance. If we don't admit that we've made a mistake we can't ever start fixing it. If we don't start fixing it we will be faced with a world at war over energy justified (in our own minds) by our mutual hate for one another. If we continue to wage low level nuclear war upon the world for the personal gain of the few, their hate for us will be justified. Not that that will solve anything. Hate merely perpetuates. I do not want to live in a bipolar world and be forced into the same situation that we see in Israel. Bananas will never have anything much to do with the New American Crusades I'm afraid Mr. Holloway. Thank you for your time Mr. Holloway Peace now, David "Crow" VanThournout Crow: The argument that we should be outraged at the radioactive isotopes that are present in everything around us is ridiculous. <<<<<< Mr. Holloway: Yes, I agree and that was not the argument that I was making or that Dr. Stabin was making. Perhaps you misunderstood. We were discussing the radioactive K-40 in bananas to show how inconsistent the activists are by being upset about radioactivity in general. If one uses a rational approach, that of estimating risk based on dose, then radiation is radiation, regardless of its source. It makes no sense to be concerned about the radioactivity of depleted uranium and not be concerned about the radioactivity of bananas. The viewpoint of the professional people is that neither the radioactivity of bananas nor the radioactivity of depleted uranium (as it has been used in battle) represents a substantial risk. The viewpoint of activists is that of extreme concern and fear over very small amounts of radiation. But their viewpoint does not withstand the "banana test". That is, it should be obvious that there is some quantity of radiation dose that is of no practical significance. The mainstream viewpoint is that both bananas and depleted uranium, most of the time, fall into this category of no particular health significance. However, the bananas test poses a problem for activists. If they concede that the radioactivity in bananas represents no significant risk, then they are conceding that the dose of radiation is important in determining risk and that there is a practical cutoff point between amounts of radiation that are harmful and amounts that are not harmful. The implication for depleted uranium then is that dose calculations must be made before screaming that it is dangerous. Ah, ha, that is what the mainstream has been saying all along. I noticed that you failed to include my reply to your comments on the bananas argument. To be fair, you should include the following, rather than selectively posting only a portion of the discussion. And ethically, you should have asked my permission before posting anything from me. Here is my response. Suppose we were showering Iraq with bananas. Would you be concerned about it from the viewpoint of excess radiation? To be consistent, you would have to be concerned about the radiation, but it is not an idea that would meet with much acceptance is it? Your problem is that you do not understand one simple thing: The Poison is in the dose. Crow: Greetings Mr. Holloway I don't disagree with most of what you're saying here. And in my honesty, I blurted out the truth about the fear of k-40... that it was ridiculous. I do understand that you were trying to point out that same ridiculousness and that you believe the threat of depleted uranium is equally insignificant. The only stipulation I would make is again the ALARA principle. In my opinion this means that you have to really put this into the context of things as well. The chance of limiting your intake of environmental radioisotopes beyond a certain level is impossible. My argument is based solely upon my belief that while it may be ridiculous to try and regulate normal environmental radioisotopes it is within the realm of possibilities that we might regulate the dispersal of depleted uranium into the environment. Furthermore, since such material is actually generated during the refining process which yields fissionable uranium for reactors and weapons as well as non-fissionable uranium which is classified as a hazardous waste product, we should not be as wanton in its use as we seem to be today. Instead we should treat it as the potentially dangerous contaminant it may prove to be. I am also suspicious of the reluctance of the US military to test our troops if requested by the service member and not informing the people of Iraq of the dangers of inhaling the dust from vehicles destroyed by DU rounds. Especially for the children's sake for whom it is known the risks associated with heavy metal poisoning are elevated. So we really just want testing and an open and transparent process that will guarantee satisfaction on both sides of the issue. As you said yourself, the reaction is pretty much evenly divided between responses like mine and more positive responses such as Jim Obergs. I must apologize for my extremism. I'm afraid that sometimes I lose my cool. I appreciate your taking the time to discuss this with me. I apologize for stretching my ethics and posting this out of hand without your permission. I admit that the radiation from radioactive potassium whether it is in bananas or any other fruit must be dangerous just as depleted uranium is dangerous if ingested in too large amounts. If you would like me to remove the posting or change it in anyway to more accurately reflect the truth, I would welcome your contributions to this blog spot. Consider it this way, I have something to prove. First that I have an open mind and really truly want the truth in this matter. I am not looking at this with the intent to prove that DU is dangerous. I just want to know what is known about depleted uranium. The other thing I have to prove is that you don't necessarily have me all figured out. I have no interest in anything but the truth. So I may have unwittingly opened the can of worms that may end up forcing this particular blogger to agree with your side of things entirely! Though more than likely we will have things we must agree to disagree upon. Still, there is the possibility that we will both learn from this exchange. I heard back from the Union of Concerned Scientists today on DU Dear Peace Quad Cities, Thank you much for your work, your interest in these important issues, and your interest in the Union of Concerned Scientists. UCS has not taken a specific look at depleted uranium, but have colleagues who have. In general, while clearly DU may have some potenial long-term health impacts, the risks are not great enough to create a campaign to try to stop its use. As I'm sure you know, we have to pick the areas where we can try to make change, and UCS has chosen not to pick up this issue. I can, however, point you to other resources that might be of interest. First is an article from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists by two scientists that I have the utmost respect for, Frank von Hippel and Steve Fetter. It's at: http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1999/nd99/nd99vonhippel.html The United Nations has also done extensive studies on DU, some of which can be found at: http://postconflict.unep.ch/dufact.html It's key conclusion is this: "At low levels of exposure, as expected in most post-conflict situations, the additional risk of cancer is thought to be very low. Importantly, any radiation effects based on DU occur only in the long-term, requiring typically 10-20 years before symptoms appear - if ever." I hope this helps you in your work. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know." Stephen Young Washington Representative/Senior Analyst Global Security Program Union of Concerned Scientists The bottom line here is; If I'm wrong I will admit it, blog it, and leave it there for all to see. If the left has some things all wrong I will reveal those things too. As you say, "accurate information serves democracy best" and I agree wholeheartedly. If we can ever reach an agreement it will be through the truth. The truth shall set us free from the web of lies that bind us so. I am personally against the use of propaganda and believe that the end does not justify the means. You must be the change you wish to see. I wish a world of truth and happiness. In order to bring that about, I must be willing to make whatever personal changes and or sacrifices may be required to achieve this goal of a better society. It all begins with ourselves. Again, I thank you for your time and your patience and your dialogue. You have been most kind. I will do my best to reciprocate. Peace now, David p.s. I am still awaiting a response from various sources that I have informed of the possible discrepancy between the two stories about Doug Rokke's credentials. I would like this corrected. I must say that I don't really believe it is anything more than an honest mistake and that aside from the obvious difference between a person with a PhD in Health Physics and a person with a PhD in education, that it is a minor point. Probably someone who was introducing Doug Rokke mistakenly listed among his accomplishments that he had a PhD in Health Physics and in that situation I can understand how it might have slipped by. I would like the issue cleared up however and will let you know as soon as I have more information. If you have more information on that I would like to hear it too. On April 16th I wrote an email to the Traprock Peace Center to ask them what they thought of the whole banana argument. His reply is posted below; Hi David - I'm convinced that Holloway is part of a DoD smear campaign against Doug. His credentials are impeccable and we have deflected efforts by a Col. Robert Cherry and others to keep Doug from speaking (in Indy area and DC). Doug has simply shown his military orders - he was promoted twice after Gulf War I for his DU work. They focus on an interpretation of the famous Groves memo. Doug says they were talking about uranium as it could be weaponized. It's not a 'mistake' - it's a difference in interpretation. He has focused on this - let's face it, a fine point of argument over the meaning of a 1943 memo - to divert attention from the dangers of DU. Throwing dirt on Doug and Helen Caldicott reflects a classic technique of US administrations, witness the treatment of Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife by the leaking of her being a CIA agent by While House sources, and the recent trashings of former Cabinet Secretary O'Neil and of Mr. Clarke during his 9/11 testimony. I've avoided continuing dialogues with Holloway as he has made it is career it seems to divert us from the real work. I'm in the on going process of developing original content for the website on DU (and other antiwar and justice issues) and organizing with allies such as the National Grassroots Peace Network http://www.endthewar.org and the Campus Antiwar Network - http://www.campusantiwar.net Holloway - a wealthy businessman from Nevada in the private nuclear sector with long involvement with nuclear bomb testing interests - would love to chew up everyone's time and throw more dirt around, hoping some of it will stick. I do appreciate your informing me of your site. I would appreciate your linking to stories that we have developed or helped expose, such as Is US covering up killing of Marines by A-10's at An Nasiriyah? http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_friendly_fire_add.html DU Casualties: Care Denied by Doug Rokke http://www.traprockpeace.org/rokke_du_care_denied.html Archives of Depleted Uranium Oversight Board (UK MoD) - the site has mysteriously been off line for over a month. It's minutes reflected criticism of the MoD for stonewalling on DU - I'm working on a story now, in fact) http://www.traprockpeace.org/duob_index.html Audio archives of the World Uranium Weapons Conference - Hamburg, Germany, Oct, 2003 http://www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium_hamburg03.html Military presentation that admits, in essence, health and environmental risks of DU http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_dtic_wakayama_Aug2002.html Studies link birth defects and gulf war http://www.traprockpeace.org/gulf_war_birth_defects.htm Comments on Baltimore VA study by Dr. Glen Lawrence http://www.traprockpeace.org/glen_lawrence_march04.html MoD (UK) issues DU warning cards to troops http://www.sundayherald.com/40306 This story was prompted by our publishing the cards http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_mod_warning_cards.html Continued DoD lies - this time that Iraq stopped WHO study on DU http://www.traprockpeace.org/kilpatrick_who_iraq.html British Vet wins DU poisoning appeal http://www.traprockpeace.org/schott_12feb04.html Two Uranium Medical Research Center investigators contaminated with DU after 13 days in Iraq http://www.umrc.net/UMRC_bulletin_07_Feb_2004.asp FIOA request shows that Navy aware of DU risks in 1984 http://www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium_milner.html WHO suppresses DU study http://www.traprockpeace.org/who_du_report.html These are just a sampling - I believe there is a clear pattern of coverups and evasions concerning DU by those with an interest in continuing to use it and to hide the risks it poses and harm it has caused. Best wishes, Charlie Jenks Charles Jenks, attorney at law President of the Core Group Traprock Peace Center http://www.traprockpeace.org Our entire Depleted Uranium library can be viewed at http://www.peacequadcities.org/freedomwatch/issues.html#du The author can be contacted at TheLorax@peacequadcities.org Fair use granted DISCLAIMER: The editors at the Deprogrammer apologize for any offense that may have been taken because of the preceding story. The views and opinions you read at the deprogrammer are entirely the responsibility of the person who has expressed them. They are in no way meant to be interpreted as opinions that members of Quad Cities People for Peace embrace as a group.

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